In reading for Women Destroy Fantasy, I’ve cleared about two hundred stories away so far, and there’s still about a hundred I have yet to read. Some amazing stuff, some familiar names, and all in all, a slush pile that is full enough of solid stories that I could fill several issues. It’s been a great pleasure to be elbow deep in so much excellence. So here’s a few notes on the experience so far.
In my head, I have these slots:
My fairytale/legend/historical slot: Right now there’s a very good historical piece that I’ve tentatively penciled in here. It hits a lot of my sweet spots as a reader, it’s an interesting magic system, and it’s a good story. We’ll see if anything comes along that knocks it out of that slot.
My steampunk/Victorian slot: Plenty of these stories to choose from, and again there’s a particular one in the lead.
My superhero slot: A good number of these, and they are all jostling for the slot. I don’t have a favorite yet.
My urban/modern day fantasy slot: Another one with multiple contenders so far, and there’s a number of wild and weird ones.
My criteria? I want good stories that will stick in the reader’s head and keep them thinking long after they’re done reading. I want lovely prose — but not so lovely that it eclipses the story. I want heart — I’m still looking for a story in the pile that makes me cry.
Other observations:
It’s a good idea to think about the impetus behind the anthology. Things like an anti-feminist message are probably going to be an awfully hard sell for an issue with what I’d consider a feminist theme.
Lots of wings in this slushpile. Not saying that’s bad, but man are there a lot of stories with this focus.
A lot has been done with fairytales in the past. Looking for fresher ground might be more rewarding.
I’ve heard other anthologists in the past talk about organizing in this fashion–x number of stories in each of several categories–and it almost always sets off my personal justice alarm. Your comment about the urban fantasy slot set it off again. So, in the urban/contemporary fantasy realm, you have several contenders, and it sounds like you even have a good range of stories (“a number of wild and weird ones”). So, what happens if you have a slot you’d to fill with a steampunk story, but the steampunks you have left are all just mediocre compared to the cluster of urban tales. Do you pass on brilliance in order to fill a category?
I realize my rhetoric in that first ‘graph is a bit slanted–perhaps even hyperbolic–but seriously, what are your determining factors? I understand that, having advertised that you would cover a range of subgenres, you are obligated to include at least one story in each subgenre you’ve advertised, but I didn’t get the impression you were publishing only one story in each subgenre. So what are the governing rules? If you have set aside four slots for steampunk/Victorian do you fill all four slots with that subgenre, regardless of individual story quality? Even if all the stories in that category are–say–sixes (on a 1 to 11 scale–we always have to go to eleven) and you have a surfeit of diverse nines in another category?
I’m sure you have a system to cover all these contingencies, Cat. I’m just curious how it works. Thanks.
That’s a great question. Fortunately for me, it’s not a case of passing on brilliance in order to fill a quota. There’s a ton of good stuff in every category and those categories are also entirely self-imposed and somewhat malleable. I’d like to have a good urban fantasy, for example, but if I haven’t hit one with enough wow to it, I’ll use something else.
At the same time, even if I had four great steampunk stories, I’d still be picking just one, because I’m thinking of the issue itself as an entity, and part of its identity is showing a range of fantasy, not just one genre. Part of the trick of editing is that you’re thinking along the lines of creating a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts, using stories that inform or speak to each other. And that requires stories that differ from each other in various ways.
This is the sad thing about being an editor. Sometimes — perhaps even often — you can love a story and not be able to use it. I hit a story yesterday in the slush that I knew wouldn’t work — but I read it all the way through because it was a great story. But it’s not right for this issue.
All in all, though, this is something that is true of rejections; often they are not about a story’s quality. They may be due to the fact that the publication recently ran a similar story or even that the story doesn’t quite match the editor’s sense of their magazine. That’s one reason I suggest writers spend a stint reading slush, so they get a feel for it.
Interesting and scary comments! (As a writer, trying to see if your story 1: falls into any of the above categories, 2: has legs enough to overcome competition.)
On a weird side note: I always thought Steampunk was more sci-fi with the technology? I’m not a steampunk reader, though, so if there are fantasy elements there, I’m interested to see them in play.
What about straight up high fantasy? Home-grown world, medieval/ancient world/eastern faux world? Or would that be considered “historical fantasy?”
Cat, I think it would be worthwhile to write a blog post about your experience in reading for WDSF versus reading for Fantasy in general. I’m curious if an all-female slush pile “feels” different or if there are themes that simply disappeared from the slush and thus seem to be only broached by men. That kind of thing. Just an idea!
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~K. Richardson
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Norwescon Editing Panel(s) Notes
I was on two different editing panels at Norwescon this weekend.
I’ve taken the liberty of combining my notes from both panels, but my notes from the first panel are much better and actually contain a page of quotes from participants, while on the second panel, which was my 4th of the day, I was much less energetic and just wrote down the questions and two notes, and am reconstructing some things from my memory, so I cannot vouch for total accuracy. In each panel, we did something that I picked up from Mary Robinette Kowal, taking questions from the audience before starting the panel, and using those to drive the conversation. It’s a great technique for wide-ranging, discussion-driven panels.
Want to Be An Editor?
Where can or do you begin? It’s hard to get an editing position when you don’t have work under your belt. Listen to editors share the details of how they got started and learn some of the pitfalls to avoid.
Chimedum Ohaegbu, Gordon Van Gelder, Cat Rambo, Jasmine Silvera
Need An Editor?
Need an editor? What can you expect? How do you find one that fits within your budget, has a good reputation, and is knowlegeable of your genre?
Cat Rambo, Cory Skerry, Rhiannon Held, Jasmine Silvera
How do you deal with the challenge of editing large numbers of submissions?
GVG: You have to start by determining what the final project will be like – then you use the question of what’s best for it to winnow down submissions. Knowing the size and scope of the project helps enormously.
CO: A cohesive vision is important. In working with an undergrad lit magazine, she sometimes redirects manuscripts, “This isn’t right for us, but you might try Place X.”
RS: Works with very long pieces, so she finds that “It’s easy to tell if a story is worth the word count.”
GVG: One consideration is that you need big name authors to sell an anthology, but it’s a balancing act. He told a story of turning down a story from Ray Bradbury and getting a much better one a week later.
CR: The dirty secret of editing is that most editors read the first page or so and use that to determine whether or not they want to keep reading.
What are the different forms of editing?
An acquisitions editor for a publishing house reads and selects manuscripts that they want to work with.
A development edit applies to an early draft, covers big picture stuff. For example, Cat’s usual developmental edits are the manuscript with comments and changes track on, a 3-5k document that is an overview plus chapter by chapter notes, and a follow up in a video call to talk about the notes.
Copy or line edit looks at line by line stuff, like typos, grammatical errors. It may include fact-checking, or that may be a separate pass.
How much does a day job in something like editing technical documentation translate into fiction editing?
It will help more with copyediting than with developmental editing. To develop your eye for the second, you really need to read in the field, which will help you develop an eye for tropes and story structure.
How does being an editor affect your writing?
A small groan escaped most of the panelists at this particular question, and the writers felt that editing can have both good and bad effects on your writing. It can sharpen your skills and make you articulate what you find wrong about a story or sentence — but it also takes energy and creativity from the same wellsprings that produce writerly words.
How does one move from being a hobbyist editor to a professional one?
Make it known that you’re accepting clients: mail friends & family as well as people you’ve edited for, promote on your website and in social media. Let friends who are editors know that you’re doing it; sometimes they may pass off clients they don’t have the schedule for.
Are there standardized editing formats and marks that an editor should know?
Most editors give the writer a Word document with track changes showing what they changed as well as comments and suggestions. The writer then goes through the manuscript accepting (or rejecting) the changes that have been made. There are industry proofreading marks, but they are applicable to hard-copy documents rather than electronic ones.
How do you get started editing?
RS: Fell into it because Ann Leckie asked her to edit Giganotasaurus and said, “Just read some stories and pick some things.”
GVG: Came up through the traditional publishing process, starting as an intern, and working in publishing. Important to emphasize that everybody’s journey is different.
CR: Was asked because of a combo of having submitted to the magazine multiple times plus the recommendation of someone she’d collaborated with.
Most magazines need slush readers and try to recruit them periodically. Follow them on social media to find out when they’re looking for them.
How is critiquing a manuscript for a critique group different than editing?
Usually stories being critiqued in a critique group are not as far along as a finished story that’s been submitted. A critique group usually provides developmental feedback rather than line edits or proofreading.
How far along in the writing process should you hire an editor?
Early on, as in first or second draft, is when you would want developmental editing. Later on, when you think the draft is as perfect as you can make it, is the time for copyediting.
How do you evaluate an editor?
CS: Most editors will do a sample edit of a few pages for you for free if you request it. Also look on the Absolute Write forums, which are full of discussion.
CR: Talk to a few of their former clients. Check Writer Beware to make sure their name doesn’t pop up and talk to a few of their other clients.
How do you build trust on either side of the editorial process?
GVG: You remember that the editor and author are working together to make the story the best it can be.
Communicate expectations and timeline; avoid surprising each other.
RH: It’s okay to push back on an editorial change, but you have to say why.
How do you listen to editorial feedback without it scarring your soul?
Reading through an edit can be daunting at first, particularly when it’s got a LOT of notes in it. But the editor’s there to be your ally and make the writing better.
You should come away from an edit — if possible — feeling like you learned something from it. A good edit can be both instructional and inspirational.
At what points does an indie writer need an editor?
Mileage varies. Some people may want a developmental edit; others may rely on beta readers or their crit group.
If you’re an indie writer, you really do need to hire a copyeditor for the finished version, because even if you are the best proofreader in the world, you will miss things about your own stuff
What’s a reasonable length of time for an edit to take?
This really depends on the edit as well as your editor’s schedule. CS knows an editor who deducts a percentage if she’s late, but at the same time charges the writer a percentage if they’re late getting it to her.
Communicate expectations and timeline clearly.
What’s a reasonable amount for an editor to charge?
It depends on both the type of edit and the manuscript itself. A light edit is less work and usually an editor will charge less for that than a manuscript where they have to wrestle with every sentence.
If you’re on a tight deadline, speeding up the turnaround to meet it will probably cost you more.
How do you go about finding sensitivity readers?
Ask people for recommendations and watch social media. Be aware that a sensitivity reader is not there to provide the official seal of approval from whatever group(s) they represent. They’re there to help you write accurately and avoid hurting people.
The two collections will have the same cover. I like this picture, but it's not the right one.This month one work item is putting the near-sf and far-sf collections together for e-publication. This morning, I got the near one assembled in a Word doc, made a formatting pass, and added about a third of the afternotes. Here are the tentative ToCs (Table of Contents). Each will be a little over 50k.
NEAR: The Mermaids Singing, Each To Each (Clarkesworld) Peaches of Immortality (originally appeared as The Immortality Game in Fantasy) Long Enough and Just So Long (Lightspeed) Therapy Buddha (20/20 Visions) Do the Right Thing (unpublished) 10 New Metaphors for Cyberspace (Abyss & Apex) Memories of Moments, Bright As Falling Stars (Talebones) RealFur (Serpentarius) A Man And His Parasite (unpublished) Not Waving, Drowning (Redstone) Flicka (Subversions) Raven (Twisted Cat Tales) Legends of the Gone (Talebones)
FAR: (much less sure about this order, suggestions welcome) Zeppelin Follies (Crossed Genres) Surrogates (Clockwork Phoenix 3) Kallakak's Cousins (Asimov's) Five Ways to Fall in Love On Planet Porcelain (unpublished) Angry Rose's Lament (Abyss & Apex) Fire on the Water's Heart (Membrane) Amid the Words of War (Lightspeed) I Come From the Dark Universe (unpublished) Seeking Nothing (Daily SF) Bots d'Amor (Abyss & Apex) TimeSnip (Basement Stories) Mother's World (Aberrant Dreams)
(If you're curious about any, all of the online ones are linked to on my fiction page – http://www.kittywumpus.net/blog/fiction/. I know there's at least one A&A link that's broken, glad to hear of any other broken links.)
I've left some stories out, because there's actually enough for a 2nd fantasy antho and a horror one, much to my surprise. I've been more prolific over the past few years than I'd realized.
In my utter arrogance, I am debating whether or not I need to hire an editor, which is normally something I'd urge anyone putting together something for self-publishing to do. My reasoning is a) most of these have undergone multiple editing passes for publication, b) I am pretty sure I can find at least one volunteer proofreader, and c) I will be doing at least one read aloud pass to polish and finetune because I'd really like this to end up looking nice and error-free.
Cover art, I have no clue about yet. If I did it myself, it'd be two stick figures dancing.
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In reading for Women Destroy Fantasy, I’ve cleared about two hundred stories away so far, and there’s still about a hundred I have yet to read. Some amazing stuff, some familiar names, and all in all, a slush pile that is full enough of solid stories that I could fill several issues. It’s been a great pleasure to be elbow deep in so much excellence. So here’s a few notes on the experience so far.
4 Responses
I’ve heard other anthologists in the past talk about organizing in this fashion–x number of stories in each of several categories–and it almost always sets off my personal justice alarm. Your comment about the urban fantasy slot set it off again. So, in the urban/contemporary fantasy realm, you have several contenders, and it sounds like you even have a good range of stories (“a number of wild and weird ones”). So, what happens if you have a slot you’d to fill with a steampunk story, but the steampunks you have left are all just mediocre compared to the cluster of urban tales. Do you pass on brilliance in order to fill a category?
I realize my rhetoric in that first ‘graph is a bit slanted–perhaps even hyperbolic–but seriously, what are your determining factors? I understand that, having advertised that you would cover a range of subgenres, you are obligated to include at least one story in each subgenre you’ve advertised, but I didn’t get the impression you were publishing only one story in each subgenre. So what are the governing rules? If you have set aside four slots for steampunk/Victorian do you fill all four slots with that subgenre, regardless of individual story quality? Even if all the stories in that category are–say–sixes (on a 1 to 11 scale–we always have to go to eleven) and you have a surfeit of diverse nines in another category?
I’m sure you have a system to cover all these contingencies, Cat. I’m just curious how it works. Thanks.
Hi Dennis –
That’s a great question. Fortunately for me, it’s not a case of passing on brilliance in order to fill a quota. There’s a ton of good stuff in every category and those categories are also entirely self-imposed and somewhat malleable. I’d like to have a good urban fantasy, for example, but if I haven’t hit one with enough wow to it, I’ll use something else.
At the same time, even if I had four great steampunk stories, I’d still be picking just one, because I’m thinking of the issue itself as an entity, and part of its identity is showing a range of fantasy, not just one genre. Part of the trick of editing is that you’re thinking along the lines of creating a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts, using stories that inform or speak to each other. And that requires stories that differ from each other in various ways.
This is the sad thing about being an editor. Sometimes — perhaps even often — you can love a story and not be able to use it. I hit a story yesterday in the slush that I knew wouldn’t work — but I read it all the way through because it was a great story. But it’s not right for this issue.
All in all, though, this is something that is true of rejections; often they are not about a story’s quality. They may be due to the fact that the publication recently ran a similar story or even that the story doesn’t quite match the editor’s sense of their magazine. That’s one reason I suggest writers spend a stint reading slush, so they get a feel for it.
Interesting and scary comments! (As a writer, trying to see if your story 1: falls into any of the above categories, 2: has legs enough to overcome competition.)
On a weird side note: I always thought Steampunk was more sci-fi with the technology? I’m not a steampunk reader, though, so if there are fantasy elements there, I’m interested to see them in play.
What about straight up high fantasy? Home-grown world, medieval/ancient world/eastern faux world? Or would that be considered “historical fantasy?”
Cat, I think it would be worthwhile to write a blog post about your experience in reading for WDSF versus reading for Fantasy in general. I’m curious if an all-female slush pile “feels” different or if there are themes that simply disappeared from the slush and thus seem to be only broached by men. That kind of thing. Just an idea!